A Protestant Tours a Catholic Cathedral


(pipe organ music) – Oh, this is incredible. – Welcome, Cathedral of the Madeleine. (electronic beeping) – Hey, I’m Matt, this is
the Ten Minute Bible Hour and whether you’re into the
whole Christianity thing or not, I bet you’ve heard of Roman Catholicism and Protestantism. These are two different expressions of Christian faith, they’re kind of two of the three really
big ones, historically. And Protestantism is about
a 500 year old expression that was born out of Roman Catholicism. Some theological issues were percolating and people were debating
them and ultimately these two groups ended up deciding we’re just doing different things here, we think different stuff. And there’s this parting of ways. So like your Lutherans, your Methodists, your Baptists, these
are all different types of Protestants, whereas
Roman Catholicism continues to be kind of a singular,
monolithic thing. I’ve always had pretty good relationships with Roman Catholics. I’ve always had pretty high
regard for Roman Catholicism, but it occurred to me the other day that pretty much everything I know about Roman Catholicism has been taught to me, told to me, explained to
me by other protestants. And I just thought you know, at some point it would be pretty cool to go and hear what Roman Catholics think and see what they do
by talking to an actual Roman Catholic in an actual
Roman Catholic church. So I put out feelers with a whole bunch of different churches
and one got back to me called the Cathedral of the
Madeleine in Salt Lake City which is actually
secretly who I was really hoping would get back to me. And they were kind enough to take a flyer on some protestant
stranger from the internet and invite me there with a
camera to see what happens. So I went, I met with Father Martin Diaz, and well, here’s what happened. Hello, Father Diaz? – Hi. – Am I saying that right? – Yes. – Father is the correct title? – That’s the correct
title, welcome, welcome to the Cathedral of the Madeleine. – All right, thank you,
thank you, I’m Matt Goodman nice to meet you sir.
– Matt, great to meet you. – I’m walking in here clueless. I have a billion things to learn, and the first thing I see as I walk up is that the front of
your church looks a lot different than the front of my church. Can you just walk me
through what this means? – This is called a tympanum, – Okay. – And it’s of course the crucifix there and you have Jesus in front. And this is Jesus the High Priest, or Jesus Christ the King. – [Matt] Okay. – All right, the idea of
course is that you’re being welcomed by Christ, Christ is
sitting on top of the world and so that coming into Christ who is the universal salvation. – Are those like straight
up Notre Dame style gargoyles up there? – They’re actually fake now. – Oh they are? – So they deteriorated
so much from 1909 to 1993 when we did the restoration
that they were taken down and fashioned out of concrete
and then put back up. So they do not work as gargoyles. Gargoyles are downspouts. – Yeah. Why make them look like
that, like Griffins, and like some of the
gargoyles that I’ve seen even look kind of like demonic. – Yeah, to keep away, kind
of scare off the evil. – Okay, so that’s kind of a leftover from European folklore
– [Father Diaz] Sure, sure. – [Matt] And stuff like that. Well, I’m glad you stuck with
it because they’re incredible. Okay, so this stained glass window up here that I’m looking at, – [Father Diaz] The rose window. – It is called the rose window? – Yes. – It’s like Notre Dame. – Yes, they’re all called
rose windows if they’re round. – Oh, so that’s, – The round rose petal, and the idea of that is the rose petals. So that’s why it’s called a rose window. – See, I’m already learning things. I thought it was like
some special nickname that was like this special unique thing for just this one place. – Like rose color or something, but no. – See, this is why you ask questions. – [Father Diaz] Yes, yes. – I guess you have to have a building that can support that
size of an open space in order to accommodate
that kind of stained glass. – [Father Diaz] Right. – Is there stained glass inside too? – Yes. – Can we go poke around? – Sure. – All right, let’s do it. – [Father Diaz] Let’s go. Welcome, Cathedral of the Madeleine. – [Matt] It’s stunning. – [Father Diaz] Angels at the top, and down here the ground and
the earth here at the bottom. – [Matt] How long did
it take to make this? – [Father Diaz] So it took 10 years to build the cathedral. It was started in 1899
and was completed in 1909. – Where do I even start? I mean there’s so much going on in here in terms of imagery. Maybe you could just walk
me through the stained glass and what these represent
and the story behind them to start with. – Where do we start
with the stained glass? (men laughing) The side windows are the
mysteries of the rosary. So it starts with the angel with Mary, Mary going to Elizabeth, Mary and Joseph the birth of Jesus, the presentation in the temple, and then Jesus at 12
years old in the temple. On this side then the three
mysteries of the rosary that are not in the Bible. This mystery is the
Holy Spirit coming upon the Apostles, the Pentecost, and then the last two,
Mary taken into heaven and Mary crowned as Queen
of Heaven and Earth. So that’s the mysteries of the rosary and the rose window, again
rose windows are classical in this kind of a cathedral. In the center is Saint Cecilia. And she is known for
music, so she is depicted with kind of a rudimentary organ. Because that’s where the organ loft is. So Saint Cecilia is the
patron saint of music and that’s why she’s in there. And we have, – I’m learning stuff. The Foo Fighters have an album, or a song called Saint
Cecilia and I had no idea why they’d pick on that, now I get it. – Right, right, yes, the patron saint. – I’m learning things about rock music from your rose window. – Kind of the masterpiece if you will is in the apps. So Jesus is divine,
100% divine, 100% human, so it’s earth, humankind, and divinity, it’s the sky, the heavens and
the earth coming together. You’re entering sacred
space which is where you, even though we’re grounded on earth, are touching heaven. So for us, the eucharist
is three events in one. So it’s the last supper, so
every mass is the last supper, every mass is in the present moment, and every mass is the banquet in heaven. – Now you’re saying that word
is, with tremendous emphasis. – So it is, there’s only one event, there’s only one sacrifice. – So it’s not a repetition of that event, – It’s not a recollection, it’s not, – It’s an atemporal version of that event. – Right, it is the last supper. There’s only one sacrifice. – [Matt] Okay. – It’s it’s Jesus, – Do you see my protestant
brain trying to wrap it, – Right, so it’s the cross. He only died once for all, once for all. And the last supper is
the unbloody sacrifice of the cross, okay. – Fascinating, okay, all right. – So this is my body, this is my blood which is offered on the cross, it’s his body and blood that redeems us. His death, and so every time we have mass, heaven and earth come together. Whether you’re in the
Cathedral of the Madeleine or you know, in a, – So it’s all one mass. – It’s all one mass. – Okay. – All one event, but it’s outside of our, so we left the world behind,
we left time and space outside. We left our world
outside, we’re in a world, and whether we’re in
this space or we’re in a village someplace in
Cambodia or Africa or whatever country that would be you know, it’s the same heaven and
earth coming together. And so our architecture and
art help to depict that. – Yeah, okay. – Help us to understand that. But it’s not necessary,
does that make sense? – Yeah, I wanna go all the
way down the rabbit hole with you on like the mechanics of that. Maybe when we sit down I
can pick your brain more about how that happens. – But you also, so this is
a cruciform church, right? So you’ve got the crucifix up there, and then this is a crucifix. So the altar in this, so this is architectural for this church, not the altar doesn’t have to be here, but in this architecture the
altar is where the heart is. So the pouring out of
God’s love from his heart – [Matt] Okay. – comes from the altar. So this is the gifts of
grace flow from the altar and behind the heart is the head. In the cathedral, what makes
a cathedral to be a cathedral is the chair, the cathedra. It’s unique to every diocese has a cathedral with a cathedra. – But not every church. – Not every church, just cathedrals. And there’s one in every diocese. – Okay. – And so that’s our chair for the Diocese of Salt Lake City. – Who sits in that chair? – So that’s uniquely the
Bishop of our Diocese, that’s his chair uniquely. So the chair sits at the
head because the head of our diocese is the Bishop. – So does he celebrate mass weekly here? Is he around a lot? How does that even, – Well luckily he’s not around a lot. No, (men laughing) – Keep that. (men laughing) – So he’s here not every
Sunday but a lot of Sundays and then the special
celebrations that we have. – [Matt] So does he conduct those services when he’s here, or do you? – No, he does. – Okay. This looks like a European
coat of arms up above. – [Father Diaz] Correct. – [Matt] What does this mean? – So each coat of arms is meant to pull something out of the area or the person. His coat of arms is a
three part coat of arms coming out of who he is. And the saying underneath, the motto changes from Bishop to Bishop. – Seems like there’s
a lot of moving parts. Is this, do you teach from here? – So that’s the scripture
is read from the ambo. Only scripture and sermon,
homilies are given from there. We feed on the word of God from the table of the ambo, all right? – What does ambo mean? – Pulpit, it just means stand. – Okay. – You know some fancy word
in either Greek or Latin. – That sounds good to me. – I don’t know, yeah,
and so we talk about the two tables of the eucharist. You know you go back to
Acts of the Apostles, what did they do? When they met for the
breaking of the bread they read the scriptures
which of course for them was what we call the Old Testament, the Hebrew scriptures. They read from the scriptures
and the breaking of the bread. So every mass is reading the
scripture, breaking the bread. – So then if that’s what
you do in every mass and every mass is the same, then everyone is always taking communion, the eucharist together. – Yes, so we are at one as
Jesus says may they all be one as the Father and I are one. So in communion we are one. Because it’s a sacrament, it
does what it says it does. It has a reality that’s
beyond your reality. It makes you one. – It’s almost like
translating two languages from all of the language that I’ve been raised around my whole life
in you know the protestant notion of symbolism, that we are, you know this is a separate thing and we are commemorating an event that we would view as a
singular event at the cross. And so it’s fascinating, it’s pushing me, and I appreciate the idea of the universality of that singular event because well, of course
the cross was one event, I’ve just never really thought
about the Lord’s Supper, the eucharist being a
singular event as well. So do you serve from here then? – So then the altar and so
the first part of the mass we have the chair for the
prayers at the beginning, then the scriptures, the sermon, homily. Then we move into the second
part which is the eucharist. So the bread and wine is
prepared on the altar, usually we have a procession
with the bread and wine and then the eucharistic
prayer, the consecratory prayer doing what Jesus did at the Last Supper. This is my body, this is my blood, so that all takes place on the altar. And then that part is over, we move into the communion part which it starts with The Lord’s Prayer. So there’s an exchange of peace that we do also in our rite. And then from the altar we
take communion to the people. And this is, so what we’re supposed to be doing is that the people are supposed to come to the altar to receive communion. Like you would come to the table at home, you sit down at the table to eat, so they’re supposed to be coming. So the idea of the procession is that you’re coming to eat at the altar. – So they line up right
down the middle here? – They line up, but of
course they don’t come up to the altar because it’s,
there are too, you know, – Logistically. – Logistically, not gonna work. – Okay, all right, all right. – But that was in the past
when you had an altar rail around where people took
communion from the altar rail, the rail was an extension of the altar. So they come in procession
because it’s an altar call. – Oh, again that language
means something a little different in my tradition. – It’s an altar call. So if you believe in Jesus,
if Jesus is your Savior, if you want to receive the
body and blood of Jesus, come on up. That’s what, we don’t say it that way, – So a non-confirmed protestant
could take communion? – No, so only, – So if you believe and
you’ve been confirmed. – And yeah, you sign
the catholic doctrine, you can come in. – All right, all right,
all right, I’m trackin’. – Because it’s that one, – I wasn’t trying to get greedy. – No, no, because it was that oneness. If we’re gonna be all,
if it’s everybody one, then we all doctrinally need to be one. – Okay. – Okay, so there’s I must
admit there’s probably some people that have
received first communion, – Some real sneaky ones? – Yeah, see them come in. We preserve the blessed
sacrament in a tabernacle. – Oh, is that what this is? – Behind here, and we can go. Let me show you the tabernacle. – Yeah, I’d love to see it. – So the tabernacle here, is where we keep the blessed sacrament. We have a light that lets
people know that there, and it’s just the
communion that’s left over. – And you can’t
untransubstantiate what is already the body and blood of Christ? – You cannot untransubstantiate. – Okay. – So once it’s the eucharist,
it is the eucharist. – Which happens there. – So once you say the prayer, it is Jesus. – So what is in here is all post prayer, – The little tiny hosts. – Okay. – And that. – And so it’s all post
prayer that’s in here. – Post prayer. So we preserve that in here and we use it. And then over the
centuries people said well, you know if I believe
that was Jesus over there then I believe that’s Jesus here, and I’m gonna come and pray, well where am I gonna come and pray? Pray in an empty building? No, I’m gonna come and
pray and then I’m gonna light a candle and then you know, and now two thousand
years later, here we are. – So this is in Roman Catholic theology, this is part of the presence of Christ, – Right, right, and in
this church it’s here again because it belongs,
I mean in a way you would say that the head is right
here in this cruciform, you know, so again, so
everything is Christ. Christ is the altar, Christ is the people, Christ is the eucharist, everything. Everything says it’s Jesus. – You’re connecting the
dots with all of that for me better than anybody
ever has, so thank you for your patience with my, – You’re welcome, you’re
welcome, you’re welcome. – My fifth grade level questions here. Something else that stands
out to me back here, this, – So that’s a reliquary. – I kinda suspected it might be. – So that’s a reliquary and
a reliquary has something based on a saint. So what we say is that that is a relic of Saint Mary Magdalene who is
the patron saint of our church. Cathedral of the Madeleine
is Mary Magdalene. – [Matt] So there’s
something a couple thousand years old in there? – Yeah, so a little tiny bone fragment, and that’s all we know. – Okay. – I mean, we only have that and it’s believed that that’s that. – And that’s, tucked
away in the tiny little – Tucked away in the you
know behind the fleur de lis in there you know, and that. And then Mary Magdalene of course is at the foot of the cross. So Mary Magdalene appears three
or four times in the church. – Is this a reminder, or is
there a spiritual reality to, – It’s a reminder that we’re connected, we’re connected to our patron saint. And it just turns out that
our patron saint knew Jesus. – Even though she’s a part
of the church triumphant, that relic, does that
mean that she is present in the same way that Christ is present? – Oh no, no not at all. – So no more, she would be
like any other believer, – It’s reverence, but this is Jesus. – So he is here, she is remembered. – Right, right, right. And it’s just meant to make a connection, and most people probably don’t even know that that’s a relic of
Saint Mary Magdalene. This is called the ambry. – [Matt] Ambry. – Ambry, so every church has an ambry which is where the holy oils are kept. So these are the oils, the
urns that are actually blessed every year, the oil inside
is blessed by the Bishop. – This Bishop. – This Bishop. – Okay, and where does the oil come from, what is it made of? – It’s olive oil. Olive oil and then the Chrism
has a balsam perfume in it. – So it’s all the same oil. Is there some sort of
spiritual transformation or transaction that’s occurring? – The blessing is for
each oil in particular. So the oil for the sick
is a healing blessing. The oil of the Catechumens, meaning those who are
coming into the church is a, well Catechumens
are kind of a spiritual kind of get out the evil
blessing, if you will. – The gargoyles. – Yeah, and then the Chrism
oil is the Christ oil, is the anointing oil of
confirmation, ordination, and that, the sealing and the
configuring to Christ oil. And in that oil, when it’s blessed, the Bishop breathes on the oil, because his spirit, like
God breathed into the dirt and got Adam and Eve, so
the Bishop breathes into it for his spirit then resides, Christ’s spirit resides in that oil, because he is Christ for us
in the sense of you know, a vicar of Christ if you will. One who stands in the place
of Christ, and then that. – So is it oil instead of water because of a reference to like
the Old Testament anointing? – Yeah, the anointing,
so you know when they anointed a king, Samuel anoints David, he breaks the horn of oil,
pours it on top of him, and so that’s in that. – Okay. – And in James, you know
call the presbyters, have them pray over you, – Oh yeah. – And you know anointed with oil. – Is this another relic here? – This is a relic of the true cross. So this is, in Catholic theology, so we have very small pieces of the cross of Jesus. So that’s, we have one. – So this would be the one
recovered by Saint Helena in the fourth century? – Right, in the fourth century, so they say that pieces
of that have been spread throughout the world, and we have one. – It’s, yes. – I mean the historian in
me just wants to be like well, how do you, – How do you know that
and how did it work? We have one. – So we come down here. Is there significance
to the baptismal font being at the foot of the cross? – So the baptismal font is for
the entrance into the church. – Okay. – So it doesn’t have to be here at the entrance to the church, – [Matt] Okay. – But we were able in our 1993 restoration to place the baptismal font here. And because it’s the first sacrament, so it’s a sacrament of initiation, so how do you get into the church? – Interesting. – You were baptized, right, – I just never thought of
it as being chronological. – So before you are
baptized, you are not a member of the church,
you are not a member of the body of Christ, correct, right? – It’s different in other
traditions, but yes, I understand. – I mean, you’re a pagan. You’re not a Christian. Here we have our confessionals. – Tell me about that. – Let me show you. So again, they don’t have
to be where they are. – Okay. – But in this church,
they’re on either side. So not every church has an
ornate wood carved confessional. We’re lucky, okay. In our confessional there are two sides. So I don’t know, – Am I allowed to go in? – You can come on in,
only if you’re a sinner. – Oh, well good! I can do that with enthusiasm. – In our confessional, the
priest sits on one side and the people have a choice. They can sit, talk face to face, or kneel and speak
anonymously through a screen. And surprisingly enough, people will kind of look and say hello, and then kneel down anonymously. – [Matt] Oh really? – For many people the anonymous is I’m not talking to this priest, I’m talking to God. The priest is just listening for God, and they want to talk to God and say okay God, these are my sins and this is where I need help. Others when people sit face to face often it becomes more of a conversation. These are my sins, you
know, can you give me some advice and help and that. And each confession takes three
minutes, five at the most. Unless someone really wants to talk. It’s a very short experience. Come in, when was my last confession? These are my sins, here is a penance, here is the absolution,
I’m sorry for my sins, absolution, blessing, out we go. – What is a penance? – So the penance is something that you do that kind of says you were sincere. – Okay, so like stopping
doing the bad thing I was doing? – It’s usually like saying an Our Father, praying an Our Father,
praying a Hail Mary, praying maybe a decade of the rosary. – I’m so ignorant, what are those? – So the Hail Mary? – Yeah, or the Our Father. – Lord’s Prayer. – Oh, okay, we call it the Lord’s Prayer. – Sorry, Lord’s Prayer. – We got a difference language. – I thought what, you
don’t know the Our Father? No, it’s the Lord’s Prayer. – I do know that one actually. – So I always say pray one
Our Father and one Hail Mary. Hail Mary is the prayer
that comes from the angel. Hail Mary, full of grace,
the Lord is with you. Angel Gabriel, and then the last part is Holy Mary Mother of God,
pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. So it’s just asking Mary, pray for us now, the hour of our death. – Okay. – And so sacrament of healing. People go to confession
once a year, twice a year, once a month, so it’s just,
everyone has a different kind of style for, kind of time period. – On Netflix is Daredevil which is my main source of information about confession. – Okay.
(Father Diaz laughing) – It seems like they always open with how long has it been since
your last confession? – Yes. – Is that real, do you do that? – So you do that, and why do you do it? We can step out, we don’t
have to stand in here. – [Matt] I think it’s really neat. – So if you tell me it’s been one month since my last confession and I
missed going to church twice. – Mm-hmm. – So that’s two out of four, okay. But if you tell me it’s
been one year since my last confession and I missed
church Sunday twice, that’s two out of 52. – So it gives you context? – It gives me a context,
it helps to understand kind of what the person’s
working on and how, you know doesn’t make any
difference in the sense, you know, but if someone
said I’ve been a year since my last confession and
I’ve not been to mass at all, that’s a whole year’s worth, you know that’s a
different kind of response if you will, than if someone
says it’s been a month and I haven’t been to mass. So this is kind of an acute,
something’s going on right now, what is it that’s preventing you from going to mass? How can I help you get closer to God? – Yeah, well it’s an entirely different pastoral exercise for you to work with somebody who’s maybe kind of walked away from their faith, than somebody who really
wants to get it right and has been here. – From the forgiveness
point of view it’s the same. God forgives you. Whatever you did, God forgives you. But if I can help you, I need a context to offer some kind of gentle advice or push or you know have you
thought about it this way. – Mm-hmm. – Does that make sense in terms of, – It does, that’s
something I can relate to. So a practical question. If this is shut, can
people hear you out here? – No, it’s a heavy door. – Do you get a line sometimes? – Oh yeah, I hear confessions for an hour. – People back up, – Yeah, people back up, it’s an hour.
– They’re eager to be here. – And again, why do people line up? It’s a profession of faith. – Yeah, it’s interesting. We stepped in there, and
maybe it’s the architecture, maybe it’s the environment,
maybe it’s something subconscious is brilliantly
crafted into this. Maybe it’s the fact that
I’m also a Christian, by my inclination was I
want to turn these off, shut the door, and talk for a minute. – Shut the door and talk. – It’s the first time I’ve
ever been in one of these. – We get non-Catholics who come and sit and ask for forgiveness. – Hmm. – Maybe we can have a conversation
about that before I go. – Yeah. (thundering pipe organ music) – That’s pretty much where
we wrapped up the tour but there was so much
other interesting stuff that I’m sorry I wasn’t
able to cram into this edit, but here are maybe the two biggest things that I personally am going to take away from this experience. Thing number one, I was struck by how utterly cohesive Roman
Catholic thought and practice is within the context of a few
key Roman Catholic assumptions. It is so easy for me to do this routine where I sit over in my
little intellectual thought bunker echo chamber and
imagine that everybody who thinks things that are different than me is just crazy, how could you
believe something like that. Or intellectually dishonest, you’re lying to yourself over there. But not only is that
not true of most people, it’s mean on my part. Naw, the reality is
that most points of view are rooted in a few key assumptions, and then whatever happens after that flows pretty naturally out
of those key assumptions. Same thing here. If you answer a few key questions about Jesus’ relationship with the church, if you interpret a couple
of pivotal passages a certain way, you’re
just gonna be catholic. And everything’s gonna
play out exactly the way it’s played out. If you answer them a
slightly different way you’re probably gonna be protestant and they’re gonna play out that way or orthodox and they’ll play out that way. Whatever the case, this was a humbling, helpful reminder about that reality. Second thing that really
stood out to me here is and you could probably see this coming as you were watching the video, but the confession bit there at the end, kinda got through the armor for me. The longer we were in that
room and talking about it, the more I started to think about myself and about God and who
I am and where I’m at with things and I found
myself really wanting to try that out. And so Father Diaz said it
was fine to take confession from a non-Roman Catholic. So after the cameras turned off we shut the door and we did that. And I know I can have that conversation anywhere, anytime with God if I want to, but there was something very powerful about having Father Diaz
sit in on that conversation and about the environment and context in which we had the conversation. So, huge thank you to the
Cathedral of the Madeleine for hosting this. Huge thank you to Father
Diaz for the time, the honesty, answering my questions, even when he suspected we might disagree or maybe it would make me uncomfortable. He shot straight with me, and what more can you ask
from somebody than that. And finally, if some of
you just watched this video and you were sitting there
saying well why didn’t you press him further on
that, or why didn’t he push back on you on this
point a little bit more, we actually have a second
half to this conversation. Father Diaz and I did a sit down interview where we cover a lot of
those key theological differences that I
referenced just a second ago. I think that conversation
is really worth your time, it has a little different
flavor than what we just did. And so if you want to catch that video, I would be so honored
if you would consider subscribing to this
channel which now because of the way YouTube works is
kind of a two-fold process where you’ve got to click
the red subscribe button and also hit that little gray bell or else they don’t let you
know when a video comes out. But if you would consider doing that I would be very grateful. If not, that’s cool too. I’m just glad that you’re here and that you’re up for
conversations like this. I’m Matt, this is the
Ten Minute Bible Hour. Let’s do this again soon.

100 Comments

Add a Comment

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *